Thanks very much for the feedback. I was first introduced to the www.cree.name website by a family member who had done some previous research and I then became interested and established that it was the Forteviot line of Crees that I came from. It shows my grandfather and two of his sons but not my father nor my auntie. Also I found some errors with my uncle's birthdates. My family migrated to Australia in 1950.
I have a lot more information that I would like to add to the family tree including my parents, siblings and grandchildren. Could you kindly advise the procedures and protocol for making alterations and additions to the Cree family tree.
I would very much like to catch up with you when you are in Toongabbie next year, we live only a very short distance from there. We will be away overseas in March but can arrange to meet up with you sometime after we get back.
Thanks for replying. It is easy to get lost or sidetracked when you go back this far, after all John Crie & Catherine Clerk would be my G x 7 grandparents, so I think its best to have a tangible reason for justifying each move back in time. Although all families did not stick to this naming pattern rigidly, many did & many at least used a variation of this.
Again I think its highly unusual for a couple to have 6 daughters & not give one of them the name of the fathers mother as happened with John Crie & Agnes Waddel if Catherine Clerk were John's mother. I am satisfied that my John Crie who married Jean Keillor in 1752 is the son of John Crie & Catherine Clerk. The problem is where to go from here. Thanks for your help & congratulations on this site & the cree name site which are a wonderful source of information.
It is certainly very complicated trying to determine who was the father of the two John Crie's who married in 1751 and 1752 and therefore what line each individual originated from. Hopefully you have taken a look at the Scottish Old Parish Registers for Births/Baptisms and Marriages that can be found here http://www.cree.name/indexes/sct.htm on Excel files.
The John Crie who married Agnes Waddel (Waddle) on the 2nd February 1751 in Perth had the following 12 recorded children in this order: Janet (1752), Agnes (1752), John (1754), William (1757), Helen (1758), Alexander (1761), Mary (1763), Patrick (1764), Elizabeth (1767), Thomas (1770), Laurence (1770), and Margaret (1771). (Based on the children's names it could be that this John Crie was actually the son of Alexander Crie & Agnas McFarland whose marriage was recorded on the 16 February 1708 in Methven. Alexander & Agnas had children named Alexander and Patrick). The marriage record of John Crie and Agnes Waddel states that he was from the parish of Perth and she was from the parish of Redgorton.
The John Crie who married Jean Keiler (Killer) on the 15 May 1752 in Perth had the following 4 children in this order: May (1752), Catherine (1754), Jean (1758) and John (1750). (As you say it could be that this John Crie was the son of John Crie and Catherine Clerk based on the use of the child's name Catherine) The marriage record of this John Crie and Jean Killer states that they were both of the parish of Perth.
A particular problem arises because the first parish records in Scotland started at different dates and therefore when someone appears on the marriage record their birth/baptism may not have been recorded in their particular parish. Clearly it has always been a complicated jigsaw puzzle in the early Cree/Crie years with many missing pieces. I guess that it is like archaeology were you have a hypothesis until new evidence comes along.
1st son after paternal grandfather 2nd son after maternal grandfatther 3rd son after father 1st daughter after maternal grandmother 2nd daughter after paternal grandmother 3rd daughter after mother
I refer to the above & have applied it to the family of John & Jean on the basis that the 3rd daughter was named after the mother which we know happened in this case with the 3rd daughter being Jean born 14th Jun 1758.
I therefore suggest the following possibility:
John Crie & Jean Keillor marry 15th May 1752, Perth.
1st Daughter - May - born 2nd Dec 1752, Perth. - named after mother's mother - Margaret Weddell.
2nd Daughter - Catherine - born 19th Apr 1754, Perth - named after father's mother- Catherine Clark.
3rd Daughter - Jean - born 14th Jun 1758, Perth - named after mother - Jean Keillor.
1st Son - John - born 14th Feb 1760, Perth - named after father's father - John Crie.
I believe Jean Keillor was bapt 30 Sep 1726, St Martins, Perth - daughter of George Keillor & Margaret Weddell who married 2nd Dec 1720, St Martins, Perth.
I suggest that John Crie was bapt 19th Jan 1718, Newburgh, Fife - son of John Crie & Catherine Clark who married 20th Oct 1711, Abernethy, Perth.
Your records show John Crie (bapt 19th Jan 1718, Newburgh, Fife - son of John Crie & Catherine Clerk) as having married Agnes Waddle in 1751, however not withstanding whether the old scottish naming paterns where strictly adhered to or not it would be highly unusual for a couple to have as many as 6 daughters ( Janet,Agnes,Helen,Mary,Elizabeth & Margaret ) & not name even 1 of them after the father's mother ( Catherine ).
Your records show a John Crie bap 19 Jan 1718 ( son of John Cree & Catherine Clerk ) who marries an Agnes Waddle 2 Feb 1751. How sure are you that this information is correct, particularly the marriage to Agnes?
In the copies of the Old Parish Registers that I sent earlier we do have the christening of a William Crie, 12 February 1761, Perth, Perthshire, to "James Crie, Miller, and Jannet Kid". The combination of 'Miller' whose spouse was "Jannet Kid" made me consider that perhaps 'James' was a mistake and that it was possibly John Crie.That has certainly happened in other cases.
With respect to your question about the christening of David Cree to David Cree in Kinnoul in 1706 there are no further clues in the register. However at the christening of his daughter Janet in 1702 in Kinnoul parish we have the interesting phrase of 'David Cree in Balthaioch'. I believe this may be Balthayock and this can be found on a Google satellite map close to Kinfauns but not far from Kinnoul Hill.
In the 'Rentall of the County of Perth, by act of the estates of Scotland, 4th August 1649 we have reference in Kinnoul Parish to a Thomas Cree and to Balthayock. This Thomas could well be related to David Cree.
Just realised that using the traditional naming patterns John's mother would most be named May or Catherine. As May is a variation of Mary/ Margaret & referring to my previous comment, David Cree & Margaret Cowan are a definite possibility.
PRONOUNCED: MAY [key] Derived from the name of the month of May, which derives from Maia, the name of a Roman goddess. May is also another name of the hawthorn flower. It is also used as a diminutive of MARY, MARGARET or MABEL.
I have only just seen your last couple of messages now, I had thought I would get a notification of a message been received ( still getting used to the site ).
I don't think Alexander Crie or William Crie are likely candidates as the father of John based simply on the fact that neither of these names occur in any of John's four sons - John, David, John 2 & Peter. If anything like the old traditional naming patterns of Ireland were also used in Scotland then John's father was most likely named either John or David with Peter being a possible name of a brother of his father.
I have now found the christening of Louiza Crie daughter of Alexander Crie on the 28 December 1708 in Meckven, therefore shortly after the marriage of Alexander Crie and Agnes McFarland on the 16 February 1708.
Based on the Meckven location we could relate our Alexander Crie to an Alexander Cree (son David 1696), Thomas Cree (daughter Isabel 1697 & son Thomas 1703) and David Cree (son John 1700) who all had children in 'Mekven' as early as 1696.
Thomas Cree is Cree ID 9247 and he is stated to be the son of David Crie (Cree ID 9245). This takes us back to 1670.
The previous analysis is based on the christening of a John Crie to Alexander Crie in Meckven in 1719. The other candidate is the christening of John Crie to William Crie in Forteviot in 1721. Clearly still work to do to unravel this puzzle.
Based on what you both propose I agree that John Crie, miller, probably married three times. The only issue is that if so he had a child named John Crie born in 1760 to Jean Keiller and another child named John Crie born to Janet Young in 1769. However this could be because the first John Crie died young and John Crie, miller, wanted his name carried on. This happened in my own family where my own father Alec Lionel Cree was preceded by another Alec Charles Cree who died young.
At this stage we cannot be sure but if we pursue the christening of John Crie in 1719 to Alexander Crie in Meckven then this Alexander may well be the one who married Agnes McFarland in Methven on 16th February 1708. The children born to an Alexander Crie/Cree in Meckven are Alexander Crie in 1712, Patrick Cree in 1715, Thomas Cree in 1717 and John Crie in 1719.
Hi Mike, Good to hear from you and thanks for your message. Glad to know of us being 8th cousins, this is something new for me. I didn't realize you had started this new Cree FHNetwork, I seemed to stumble on it by accident. I have been otherwise out of researching for a while now, most of my time is committed to my husband with dementia. I will try to get round to doing a blog about my Cree family and also have a few photographs that I can upload. My immediate Cree family worked most of their lives in the Denton Hatting industry as hatting engineers, My gggrandfather Francis Cree and his son Francis Cree, my ggrandfather were both inventors in hatting. Best wishes, Mavis
Hello Mike, Thanks for your message. The network has been incredibly helpful! I'd be grateful for your help with some broader practical points. (1) Can you recommend any websites that offer (preferably free) family tree templates? (2) I'd like to try to fill out my Henderson line from Kilmarnock: what are the most effective websites and places to do family research in Scotland (e.g.,ScotlandsPeople Centre and the Burns Memorial Centre, Kilmarnock)? Such practical considerations are important since I live in Finland. Incidentally, I lived in Parkland Drive, Oadby for a couple of years at the end of the 1970s. Best regards, Gordon.
GOOD I AM SO LOOKING FORWARD TO YOU COMMING OVER .WE CAN MEET UP ANY TIME YOU LIKE .CALL ME WHEN YOU GET OVER AND I WILL MEET YOU .I KNOW ALL THE LISBURN CREES.AS I AM ONE.MY GRAN/DAD WILLIAM D.O.D.1959 AT 13 CASTLE STREET LISBURN[ .THATS WILLIAM JNR.AS HIS FATHER WAS WILLIAM.SOME SAY WILLIAM JNR WORKED IN THE LISBURN POST OFFICE HQ.MY PHONE No OO353831177572.
Thanks for the friends invite and for your Blog contribution. I've now added the Blogs option which is available for free but I'm not sure how it works. Does it mean that members can each have their Blogs which keeps their individual blogs all together, which would be useful?